Playing d4 in the Ruy Lopez

Hi folks,

I am a low-rated player studying the Ruy Lopez with white, and I am trying to learn when to play d4. Does anybody have principles or "rules of thumb" you might share?

Currently, I am studying a batch of Karpov's games to get a sense of how he approaches this question. Even in his games there are significant differences *within* the same variation -- in other words, he plays this move early, and other times waits -- so it's already clear to me that this is not a simple or static question.

I am mostly interested in how other folks learn to "feel" this decision, and appreciate any insight you could share. Thanks in advance, everyone!

Take care,

@barrenriverjohn

@barrenriverjohn said in #1:

> Karpov

So you mean those closed Ruy mainlines. I'm a rare visitor in the e4 e5 realm, but I guess if they wait with d4 it's only because there are some even more urgent issues to take care of, like protecting your e pawn or lsb, and not because d4 is bad per se. I mean, you've even played c3, so... Unless it's them grandmasters trying to trick each other with move orders and theory and novelties, in which case it's officially incomprehensible ;)

Do you have any particular positions in mind, where you think about playing d4, but the database and/or engine say otherwise?

Hey @LepPierogi -- thanks for thinking on this even though you don't play this opening from the white side too much. Happy to move away from Karpov for a second to make my point.

Take, for example, white's response to 3...d6 (the Steinitz Defense): according to the lichess database, 72% of master players play 4. d4; however, a good portion coolly develop and hold off on d4 until move 7 -- or later.

It's this kind of decision I am trying to figure out. Positionally speaking, there is a choice being made here, and I am just trying to understand it as I go through the lines and try to learn something of the positions.

Thanks for engaging this question of mine!

Perhaps, insight could be improved by looking at The Ruy Lopez: Move by Move by Neil McDonald (2011).
web.archive.org/web/20140627022042/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen153.pdf

Back in 1895, Lasker seemed to think that, after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O, 6 d4 was the appropriate response to just about any black 5th move that White was likely to see. About 3 decades later, Lasker gave 6 Re1 as the reaction to 5...Be7, so, apparently, the time to play d4 is not obvious.

@barrenriverjohn said in #3:
> Hey @LepPierogi -- thanks for thinking on this even though you don't play this opening from the white side too much. Happy to move away from Karpov for a second to make my point.
>
> Take, for example, white's response to 3...d6 (the Steinitz Defense): according to the lichess database, 72% of master players play 4. d4; however, a good portion coolly develop and hold off on d4 until move 7 -- or later.
>
> It's this kind of decision I am trying to figure out. Positionally speaking, there is a choice being made here, and I am just trying to understand it as I go through the lines and try to learn something of the positions.
>
> Thanks for engaging this question of mine!
In stenitz white can play d4 for development edge or wait and build c3-d4 for pawn center. both are viable

@Ben10Tenyson -- as you point out, both are viable. I guess I am trying to learn for myself which paths suits me better, and which ones to explore further. Is there a choice you like better here? If so, why?

Ideally, I would love to hear more experienced players say things like, "I like to play d4 early, because it allows me X, Y, and Z" or "I generally like to develop the position first, because I have noticed X, Y, and Z."

@kindaspongey -- thanks for continuing to add to this. I appreciate you bringing your knowledge of chess history to bear here, and it's motivating to learn that d4 is an evergreen question for the white pieces. Knowing Lasker revised his thinking after so many years makes me feel like I am asking a good question!

@barrenriverjohn said in #1, #3, and #7:
> ... I am a low-rated player studying the Ruy Lopez with white, and I am trying to learn when to play d4. Does anybody have principles or "rules of thumb" you might share? ... [Karpov] plays [d4] early, and other times waits -- so it's already clear to me that this is not a simple or static question. ... I am mostly interested in how other folks learn to "feel" this decision, ... Take, for example, white's response to 3...d6 (the Steinitz Defense) ... as [Ben10Tenyson points] out, both [d4 and c3] are viable. I guess I am trying to learn for myself which paths suits me better, ... Ideally, I would love to hear more experienced players say things like, "I like to play d4 early, because it allows me X, Y, and Z" or "I generally like to develop the position first, because I have noticed X, Y, and Z." ... Knowing Lasker revised his thinking after so many years makes me feel like I am asking a good question!
I fear that you are not likely to find the sort of answer that you are hoping for. The book, Understanding the Spanish, notes that, after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 g6, 4 d4 "is White's sharpest approach", and, after an illustrative game, continues with:
"We now turn to a slower pattern of development for White which gives the game a more positional flavour. White concentrates on erecting a formidable centre with c3 and d4, which in turn produces a space advantage after d5. ..."
A game with 3...g6 4 O-O Bg7 5 c3 a6 6 Ba4 d6 7 d4 is presented.
The same book offers 4 d4 as a reaction to 3...d6. ("White strikes immediately in the centre.") Two games with 3...d6 4 d4 are presented.
It is a pretty daunting project to undertake to study the Ruy Lopez. Right off, one faces the prospect of potentially encountering 3...a6, 3...Nf6, 3...f5, 3...Bc5, 3...d6, 3...Nge7, 3...g6, and 3...Nd4. I don't think that there are "X, Y, and Z" principles that apply to all of that sort of thing. It is perhaps not surprising to see the advice in Journey to the Chess Kingdom by Yuri Averbakh and Mikhail Beilin:
"Alekhine advised beginners not to play the Spanish game. We also recommend you get some experience first by playing relatively simple openings - the Scotch and Italian games - and only then move on to the Spanish one."
It is possible to play a somewhat simplified Ruy Lopez.
"... As a first step in mastering the Ruy Lopez, you need a solid, simple repertoire that will allow you to play practice games with your new opening without fearing nasty surprises. ... 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 d3 ... This should be by far the most common position you reach after 3 Bb5. Until, that is, you feel ready to branch out from 5 d3 to other, sharper variations. ..." - The Ruy Lopez: Move by Move by GM Neil McDonald (2011)
In First Steps: 1 e4 e5, GM Emms wrote, "... you certainly don’t need to remember every single variation and all the notes before playing the opening. Take in the first few moves and the key ideas, and then try it out in your games! ..."
GM Nick de Firmian told his readers that, after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 d6, "4 d4 is the best and most forceful move", but he also wrote that the "moves 4 c3, 4 O-O, and 4 Bxc6+ bxc6 5 d4 are all sensible and give White chances for advantage".
"... I am not a big fan of weaker players memorizing lots of opening lines they will never play. However, it is quite a different issue to spend a small amount of time learning how to play your openings a little better each time they occur. A long journey begins with a single step. ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2005)
web.archive.org/web/20140627023809/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman50.pdf

Thanks for all of this, @kindaspongey -- like I suggested earlier, I really love your academic approach to this, and I am quite drawn to reading and thinking about openings in this way even though I am a low-rated player.

I especially appreciate Heisman's advice against "weaker players memorizing lots of opening lines they will never play." This resonates with me. Bracketing Alekhine's suggestion to stay away from the Spanish in the first place, it's in Heisman's spirit that I am so interested in this d4 problem.

Instead of memorizing lines, my approach is: what positions does an early d4 get me into? Do I like playing them? And what positions does a deferred d4 get me into? Do I like playing them?

Another way of saying this: I am wagering that I will never get good at thinking positionally until I ask positional questions. This question about d4 in my opening of choice seems like a good place to start as any.

@barrenriverjohn said in #9:
> ... my approach is: what positions does an early d4 get me into? ... And what positions does a deferred d4 get me into? Do I like playing them? ... This question about d4 in my opening of choice seems like a good place to start as any.
I fear that you will find that there are not reliable characterizations of the position after an early d4.
After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 d6, "4 d4 is the best and most forceful move" - GM Nick de Firmian (2007)
After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 Nf6, "[moves other than 4 O-O] leave White with nothing." - IM Sam Collins (2005)
www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1109729
I suspect that the way to get a "feel" for the decision is to play a lot of games and do a lot of reading.
By the way, you might be interested in the discussion at lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/classical-center-always-losing-with-it .