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I have a simple question for the Lichess Team: WHAT IS WORSE; LEAVE THE GUILTY UNPUNISHED, OR CONDEMN AN INNOCENT PERSON??
THAT MAY BE THE LICHESS' FIRST REAL BIG MISTAKE! I mean, JUST LIKE THAT, YOU REMOVED ALL COACHING QUALITY REVIEWS!! Wow!
Don't be confused; I only had a few reviews. It's something I don't care too much about. I think there were only 5 or 6. I even deleted some positive reviews from the people I didn't coach or know. However, those 5-6 views I got WERE ALL HONEST!
Please note that I have been in LOVE with LICHESS since I first used this platform. I support you with all my heart! There are several reasons for this. First, I am enthusiastic about the idea of open source. Second, this platform is a masterpiece of love for chess and chess players. This attitude can be seen in the fact that, for a long time now, not a single month has passed (if my memory serves me well) without donating at least a few dollars to Lichess. I TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORT AND THE WONDERFUL PLATFORM YOU'VE BUILT!
On the one hand, I am aware of the abuse in this area. Come on; everyone knows that. However, this seems like an EXTREME AND RUSHED DECISION. There is one universal principle; "If you don't know what the outcome of what you do (or change) will be, it's better not to change anything." The reason is simple: IT CAN DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD!
For the sake of all those hard-working and quality colleagues/coaches (most of whom are better than me) who invested effort, work, and sweat, THINK AGAIN.
Ask yourself, on what basis will students now have any confidence in any coach? You wrote yourself that MOST coaches don't do such dishonest things! THEN WHY PUNISH THE VAST MAJORITY OF COACHES WHO INVEST THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND EFFORT TO BUILD A GOOD NAME FOR THE SAKE OF A SMALLER NUMBER OF THOSE WHO USE FRAUD???
I am sure that "WHERE THERE IS A WILL, THERE'S A WAY." Simply, THERE MUST BE A BETTER SOLUTION!
I am confident that you will do your best to reconsider this crucially important issue.
With confidence in you and deep respect,
Andro.
THAT MAY BE THE LICHESS' FIRST REAL BIG MISTAKE! I mean, JUST LIKE THAT, YOU REMOVED ALL COACHING QUALITY REVIEWS!! Wow!
Don't be confused; I only had a few reviews. It's something I don't care too much about. I think there were only 5 or 6. I even deleted some positive reviews from the people I didn't coach or know. However, those 5-6 views I got WERE ALL HONEST!
Please note that I have been in LOVE with LICHESS since I first used this platform. I support you with all my heart! There are several reasons for this. First, I am enthusiastic about the idea of open source. Second, this platform is a masterpiece of love for chess and chess players. This attitude can be seen in the fact that, for a long time now, not a single month has passed (if my memory serves me well) without donating at least a few dollars to Lichess. I TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORT AND THE WONDERFUL PLATFORM YOU'VE BUILT!
On the one hand, I am aware of the abuse in this area. Come on; everyone knows that. However, this seems like an EXTREME AND RUSHED DECISION. There is one universal principle; "If you don't know what the outcome of what you do (or change) will be, it's better not to change anything." The reason is simple: IT CAN DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD!
For the sake of all those hard-working and quality colleagues/coaches (most of whom are better than me) who invested effort, work, and sweat, THINK AGAIN.
Ask yourself, on what basis will students now have any confidence in any coach? You wrote yourself that MOST coaches don't do such dishonest things! THEN WHY PUNISH THE VAST MAJORITY OF COACHES WHO INVEST THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND EFFORT TO BUILD A GOOD NAME FOR THE SAKE OF A SMALLER NUMBER OF THOSE WHO USE FRAUD???
I am sure that "WHERE THERE IS A WILL, THERE'S A WAY." Simply, THERE MUST BE A BETTER SOLUTION!
I am confident that you will do your best to reconsider this crucially important issue.
With confidence in you and deep respect,
Andro.
Thank you for your support and many valuable points. It is evident that the issue at hand raises a significant concern. A student currently seeking a coach faces a challenge in distinguishing between a coach with numerous positive reviews and one without any reviews at all. This action taken by Lichess reflects a lack of regard for the hard work invested by honest coaches. It is unfortunate that the majority of coaches are being penalized for the actions of a few individuals, as explicitly stated in the message I received. Regards Richard by the way Let's give members who are not coaches an insight:
Dear Lichess Coach,
Unfortunately, we have had to remove reviews/ratings from coach pages. Investigation found that many reviews were fabricated, or legitimate negative reviews were removed. This was not all coaches, or even a majority, but it does still undermine any trust students can have in the review system. Until a better solution exists, we have fully removed coach reviews. Apologies for the inconvenience.
Dear Lichess Coach,
Unfortunately, we have had to remove reviews/ratings from coach pages. Investigation found that many reviews were fabricated, or legitimate negative reviews were removed. This was not all coaches, or even a majority, but it does still undermine any trust students can have in the review system. Until a better solution exists, we have fully removed coach reviews. Apologies for the inconvenience.
@andro2 said in #12:
> Don't be confused; I only had a few reviews. It's something I don't care too much about. I think there were only 5 or 6. I even deleted some positive reviews from the people I didn't coach or know. However, those 5-6 views I got WERE ALL HONEST!
Are you saying that after you deleted the dishonest reviews, the remaining ones were honest? I'm not sure that this supports your side as much as you think.
> Don't be confused; I only had a few reviews. It's something I don't care too much about. I think there were only 5 or 6. I even deleted some positive reviews from the people I didn't coach or know. However, those 5-6 views I got WERE ALL HONEST!
Are you saying that after you deleted the dishonest reviews, the remaining ones were honest? I'm not sure that this supports your side as much as you think.
The decision to remove the feed back which students leave on their coach's profiles can do more harm than being good in the long run .And I say that as a coach who invested at least 5 years in coaching at lichess and getting a lot of positive feedbacks from my students .
Now the students will have no idea what to expect from a particular coach and there will be a huge amount of disappointment in expectations and reality .
My advice to lichess support is to reconsider this decision . And decide what is better :
1 Accounts with comments on them (even if there might be some misleading feedbacks ) or
2 . Absolutely no idea what to expect from the coaches in the list...(because iam sure most of my colleagues does not deserve to be punished for things they havent done ...
Best regards
IM Spas Kozhuharov
Now the students will have no idea what to expect from a particular coach and there will be a huge amount of disappointment in expectations and reality .
My advice to lichess support is to reconsider this decision . And decide what is better :
1 Accounts with comments on them (even if there might be some misleading feedbacks ) or
2 . Absolutely no idea what to expect from the coaches in the list...(because iam sure most of my colleagues does not deserve to be punished for things they havent done ...
Best regards
IM Spas Kozhuharov
I can understand why people are upset that reviews are gone, and I'm sure they were very useful for coaches wanting to find new students. We also should have let people know in advance before we made the change, so I apologize for that. The review data is not deleted, and we're working on a way to help people get access to it if they want to copy it elsewhere.
The problem is that we don't have a good way to confirm that one person was coached by another. We've received complaints from people who had a bad experience with a coach and were understandably not happy to discover their negative reviews deleted, and maybe they should have been deleted, how do we know if that person really worked with the coach at all? If we can't be sure of the legitimacy of reviews they shouldn't be on the site, and I'm not aware of any way to do that.
Money and manpower are not the problem. We'd be willing to assign some of our mod team to police coach reviews if we knew of a good way to do it.
The problem is that we don't have a good way to confirm that one person was coached by another. We've received complaints from people who had a bad experience with a coach and were understandably not happy to discover their negative reviews deleted, and maybe they should have been deleted, how do we know if that person really worked with the coach at all? If we can't be sure of the legitimacy of reviews they shouldn't be on the site, and I'm not aware of any way to do that.
Money and manpower are not the problem. We'd be willing to assign some of our mod team to police coach reviews if we knew of a good way to do it.
Look, you don't have to solve a problem 100%. It would be enough to address the issue of fake reviews by removing reviews stating "Good Coach" or "Great Coach" without providing any additional context to support a 5/5 score. Additionally, remove reviews from closed accounts. Two simple solutions If you have already investigated the problem by consulting with coaches, I'm confident that this solution has likely been suggested multiple times. However, the way this was done " Bulldozer method" the cure implemented is worse than the problem. You listened to potential students complaining about reviews, did you also listen to all students who found the system of reviews useful to find the right coach or since they didn't have anything to complain about their silent voice didn't count also what about the coaches' side of this or did you just assume they are all cheating with the reviews and deserve this treatment? Regards Richard
@mcgoves said in #14:
> Are you saying that after you deleted the dishonest reviews, the remaining ones were honest? I'm not sure that this supports your side as much as you think.
Dear Steve (AKA mcgoves),
Thanks for the question and the opportunity to give you an answer. Actually, I'm glad that you did that, and that answer can be helpful to others. I will be happy if as many chess players and coaches read it!
Since I can see that you are not a coach, I assume you are not familiar with the procedure, and therefore I understand where such a question comes from.
Namely, every review someone writes for a coach first goes to the coach's assessment. The coach can then publish or NOT publish that review. Only then do these reviews become visible on the coach's profile. I PERSONALLY REVIEWED THE MENTIONED 5-6 REVIEWS THAT WERE VISIBLE ON MY COACHING PROFILE FIRST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY CAME FROM MY ACTUAL STUDENTS. In addition, I insisted that the review should be HONEST, NOT FLATTERY.
ONLY AFTER I ensured everything was fair and correct, I would "approve" that review with a clear conscience. After that, these reviews became visible on my coach profile.
As for those reviews that I deleted, they were the highest ratings (!), praise, and flattery. Who wouldn't want a positive review? The issue was that the individuals in question were PEOPLE I HAD NEVER COACHED OR EVEN KNEW THEM! So if I approved them, it would be a lie and a fraud. I NEVER DID SUCH SCAMS. I DON'T DO IT NOW, NOR WILL I EVER DO. MY CLEAR CONSCIENCE IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT TO ME. Long story short, after I understood what it was all about, I dismissed and deleted those reviews and NEVER APPROVED THEM. So, THOSE REVIEWS WERE NEVER, NOT FOR A MOMENT, PUBLISHED OR VISIBLE ON MY COACHING PROFILE!! THEY WERE REJECTED WITHOUT "SEEING THE LIGHT OF DAY."
Of course, I'm proud of it! I don't know and don't want it any other way. That is precisely the reason why I was able to write the above words calmly.
I am confident this explanation has clarified and fully addressed your question.
Best regards,
Andro.
> Are you saying that after you deleted the dishonest reviews, the remaining ones were honest? I'm not sure that this supports your side as much as you think.
Dear Steve (AKA mcgoves),
Thanks for the question and the opportunity to give you an answer. Actually, I'm glad that you did that, and that answer can be helpful to others. I will be happy if as many chess players and coaches read it!
Since I can see that you are not a coach, I assume you are not familiar with the procedure, and therefore I understand where such a question comes from.
Namely, every review someone writes for a coach first goes to the coach's assessment. The coach can then publish or NOT publish that review. Only then do these reviews become visible on the coach's profile. I PERSONALLY REVIEWED THE MENTIONED 5-6 REVIEWS THAT WERE VISIBLE ON MY COACHING PROFILE FIRST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY CAME FROM MY ACTUAL STUDENTS. In addition, I insisted that the review should be HONEST, NOT FLATTERY.
ONLY AFTER I ensured everything was fair and correct, I would "approve" that review with a clear conscience. After that, these reviews became visible on my coach profile.
As for those reviews that I deleted, they were the highest ratings (!), praise, and flattery. Who wouldn't want a positive review? The issue was that the individuals in question were PEOPLE I HAD NEVER COACHED OR EVEN KNEW THEM! So if I approved them, it would be a lie and a fraud. I NEVER DID SUCH SCAMS. I DON'T DO IT NOW, NOR WILL I EVER DO. MY CLEAR CONSCIENCE IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT TO ME. Long story short, after I understood what it was all about, I dismissed and deleted those reviews and NEVER APPROVED THEM. So, THOSE REVIEWS WERE NEVER, NOT FOR A MOMENT, PUBLISHED OR VISIBLE ON MY COACHING PROFILE!! THEY WERE REJECTED WITHOUT "SEEING THE LIGHT OF DAY."
Of course, I'm proud of it! I don't know and don't want it any other way. That is precisely the reason why I was able to write the above words calmly.
I am confident this explanation has clarified and fully addressed your question.
Best regards,
Andro.
Great answer Andro, i have been given reviews like: " Good Coach " followed by a message Hi i sent a positive review now can you join my team? Of course, any coach with integrity would not accept and just delete such a review. Lichess staff's action just makes no sense to me, as chess players one of the first things we learn is to keep impulses under control and think before we make a move to figure out if there is any drawbacks but maybe the staff who implemented this is not chess players? Regards Richard
Well, you are only thinking about yourself, I think Lichess mods/devs have all rights to solve any problem they want in whatever way. Note it's about use cases. Not every user on Lichess is a coach meaning less feature usage, Also, since not all are coaches the percentage of fake reviews is obviously very high. Tracking reviews are not just that easy by filtering reviews by "hi" or "great coach" long well-written reviews can be fabricated by AI tools like GPT or by some sort of "wrong ways". All developers are chess players and obviously, we are not some crazy people who maintain the software for FREE and we don't know how to make decisions. I think you are missing the big picture here, and you can email Lichess to get all the student reviews you had. So I don't think blaming the staff is the way here. You can of course create your coaching site, and post all reviews there. You can also consider posting reviews within your coach description. There are many ways to solve a problem if you want :)
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