It's great that Lichessians are having this novel discussion that FIDE was supposed to have with themselves several decades ago.
FFS.. what the hell is wrong with both men and women titles / ratings? Have we all got to walk around or compete in a blue boiler suit? Does that make you happy?
If a woman is better than all the other women, then she is best woman and same for men, boys and girls. If that threatens you or you find that in some ridiculous way, demeaning, then you're a bit sad.
In the real world, some people are better than others.. and believe it or not there are two sexes. That's life. Im sure that if the Best Man plays against the Best Woman, or men/women/kids play in a competition then the best person wins and becomes The Best Person Champion or maybe Overall World Champion or whatever.... take your pick. Just play the damned game.
If a woman is better than all the other women, then she is best woman and same for men, boys and girls. If that threatens you or you find that in some ridiculous way, demeaning, then you're a bit sad.
In the real world, some people are better than others.. and believe it or not there are two sexes. That's life. Im sure that if the Best Man plays against the Best Woman, or men/women/kids play in a competition then the best person wins and becomes The Best Person Champion or maybe Overall World Champion or whatever.... take your pick. Just play the damned game.
@BorisOspasky I think the problem is that it isn't called MFM and WFM, but FM and WFM, making the women's title appear like something special, a privilige. Maybe it would be helpful to call it just FM or split it even with MFM and WFM. The way it is doesn't make too much sense out of a linguistic perspective.
@TunjiGold said in #1:
> I think it is gender insult and gender belittling to have WFM . Chess is not a physical exercise and don't require muscle. Men and women should be given equal platform to play. After all men and women sit for same mathematics exams or engineering degree.
If This is a problem for You then just close your account right now, Nobody will know your gender then.
> I think it is gender insult and gender belittling to have WFM . Chess is not a physical exercise and don't require muscle. Men and women should be given equal platform to play. After all men and women sit for same mathematics exams or engineering degree.
If This is a problem for You then just close your account right now, Nobody will know your gender then.
@Ianalyse I’ll guess that it was never MGM because maybe women didn’t play way back so the title GM etc never needed an M prefix. So when women started playing it made perfect sense to say W/FGM to denote it was a she and not a he.
I think having a title GM or WGM is in itself a hard earned privilege and having an F in front in no way indicates anything other than the owner is a woman and not a man and not indicative of her being a weaker player than a man.
In fact having been thrashed by a 10 year old girl at my club, I can say that girls or women can be better than men. If women choose to do away with F or W then that’s their choice but I think a woman who’s earned the right to be FGM would be happy to hold that title. I don’t see linguistics playing any part in it. I think that’s just an excuse to try and force through a totally unnecessary change. :-)
I think having a title GM or WGM is in itself a hard earned privilege and having an F in front in no way indicates anything other than the owner is a woman and not a man and not indicative of her being a weaker player than a man.
In fact having been thrashed by a 10 year old girl at my club, I can say that girls or women can be better than men. If women choose to do away with F or W then that’s their choice but I think a woman who’s earned the right to be FGM would be happy to hold that title. I don’t see linguistics playing any part in it. I think that’s just an excuse to try and force through a totally unnecessary change. :-)
@BorisOspasky
> @Ianalyse I’ll guess that it was never MGM because maybe women didn’t play way back so the title GM etc never needed an M prefix.
That is absolutely right. But it needs it now.
> In fact having been thrashed by a 10 year old girl at my club, I can say that girls or women can be better than men.
A 10 year old girl at your club has nothing to do with the average strength of titled players. Also I didn't claim otherwise.
> I think a woman who’s earned the right to be FGM would be happy to hold that title
A man would be too. The real problem is that female players do not just solely compete against each other like in soccer, but compete against men too, while getting a title for a worse performance (by definition). Sport always relied on fairness and it isn't given there.
> @Ianalyse I’ll guess that it was never MGM because maybe women didn’t play way back so the title GM etc never needed an M prefix.
That is absolutely right. But it needs it now.
> In fact having been thrashed by a 10 year old girl at my club, I can say that girls or women can be better than men.
A 10 year old girl at your club has nothing to do with the average strength of titled players. Also I didn't claim otherwise.
> I think a woman who’s earned the right to be FGM would be happy to hold that title
A man would be too. The real problem is that female players do not just solely compete against each other like in soccer, but compete against men too, while getting a title for a worse performance (by definition). Sport always relied on fairness and it isn't given there.
Problem is certainly not that there’s GM instead of MGM as there are some women holding this unisex title.
I guess OP thinks it’s positive discrimination. Personally I find it hard to argue with that. On the other hand any woman can go for the unisex titles, so it seems kinda pointless arguing about it plus I’m way too low rated and the wrong gender to have an opinion that matters in this regard.
I feel that in order to bring things into perspective we need input of people that have allot of experience at top level. Preferably female perspectives to not talk over their heads but mostly just any strong players with OTB experience who might have picked up an opinion or two during live play.
If you look at the numbers it seems first of all that chess is not that popular among women, but the WGM title seems to be something that popularizes the sport in that regard and women much rather push for that title than the open and slightly more easily obtained FM. So just kinda cluelessly judging by the numbers WGM title makes more than a few women going the extra mile and tryharding more whatever the exact underlying motivation is (maybe it’s just coz the title sounds cool).
Considering the participation gap described in the article linked by FC-in-the-UK and chummer i tend to agree that a little bit of positive discrimination when it actually does the trick and seems to be accepted by the majority of the gender in question (while the option for the open titles also remains) is not something to get too obsessed about.
Btw I encourage everybody to read the article, it’s basically a simple explanation for the statistically challenged - like me - why Polgars don’t grow on trees 😀
I guess OP thinks it’s positive discrimination. Personally I find it hard to argue with that. On the other hand any woman can go for the unisex titles, so it seems kinda pointless arguing about it plus I’m way too low rated and the wrong gender to have an opinion that matters in this regard.
I feel that in order to bring things into perspective we need input of people that have allot of experience at top level. Preferably female perspectives to not talk over their heads but mostly just any strong players with OTB experience who might have picked up an opinion or two during live play.
If you look at the numbers it seems first of all that chess is not that popular among women, but the WGM title seems to be something that popularizes the sport in that regard and women much rather push for that title than the open and slightly more easily obtained FM. So just kinda cluelessly judging by the numbers WGM title makes more than a few women going the extra mile and tryharding more whatever the exact underlying motivation is (maybe it’s just coz the title sounds cool).
Considering the participation gap described in the article linked by FC-in-the-UK and chummer i tend to agree that a little bit of positive discrimination when it actually does the trick and seems to be accepted by the majority of the gender in question (while the option for the open titles also remains) is not something to get too obsessed about.
Btw I encourage everybody to read the article, it’s basically a simple explanation for the statistically challenged - like me - why Polgars don’t grow on trees 😀
@Rookitiki
> Problem is certainly not that there’s GM instead of MGM as there are some women holding this unisex title.
Women are allowed to have 10 different titles, men only 5. How is this supposed to be fair. Make more men titles too then, so all those hardworking 2400 lichess guys without a title get something too as motivation :)
> Problem is certainly not that there’s GM instead of MGM as there are some women holding this unisex title.
Women are allowed to have 10 different titles, men only 5. How is this supposed to be fair. Make more men titles too then, so all those hardworking 2400 lichess guys without a title get something too as motivation :)
But look how elegant is the red tower compared to the blue one here www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/a7ct7e/men_and_women_fide_chess_ratings_infographic/
If it's a gender insult to women, let women complain about it. Men can kindly stop worrying so much about how unfair this is. Women have voices and can speak for themselves if they feel insulted.
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